Isiah Jordan

Big Bad Beautiful Brains (00:01)
This episode is a special that I’m doing in partnership with the Spill Festival, which is running in Ipswich between the 23rd and the 26th of October.

James (00:09)
Welcome to Big Bad Beautiful Brains. I’m James. Since I was diagnosed at the age of 45 with autism and ADHD, I’ve been on a journey not only to discover how my brain works and how to look after myself, but also about other people’s brains and how they look after theirs.

I’ll be speaking to people from all different backgrounds, all different ages, and all different experiences to understand how they think and how their big bad beautiful brains work.

James (00:40)
Isaiah Jordan, a UK based photographer and youth worker whose work explores identity, culture and community. ⁓

their voices, their stories, and their lived experience. He challenges traditional ideas about who gets to tell which stories and why.

that exploration, inviting honest conversations about belonging, behaviour and the space between the photographer and subject.

James (01:17)
Isiah thanks for coming in. How are you? ⁓

Isiah (01:20)
Good, thank you.

James (01:22)
What’s the song or sound that’s been stuck in your head recently?

Isiah (01:27)
I’ve been sort of thinking a lot about music. I’m really into music and R&B and there’s been a lot of songs recently, ⁓ such as songs like Kalani, ⁓ Folded, that I literally can’t get out of my head. ⁓ I would say TikTok is probably to blame for that and Instagram Reels and Scrolling, Doomscrolling on your phone just constantly. ⁓

and I just constantly can’t get that song out of my head. And it’s only one bit of the song as well from the sort of 10 second reel on TikTok and things like that, that I sort of got the idea from. And now I just constantly just want to listen to it the car and playing it as I’m driving along.

James (02:09)
Do

you have any… ⁓ does that piece of music or does any other music you use as a kind of way to relax or way to calm down or if you’re feeling kind of overwhelmed, that or any other piece of music ⁓ you use as a go-to to kind of rebalance yourself?

Isiah (02:30)
Well, I think I struggle a bit with mental health. So I think my my sort of safe haven, my go to is listening to music. My dad was a DJ in Ipswich ⁓ during the like 90s and ⁓ he’s very into like studio engineer. He’s an engineer as well and he makes his own music and he’s made music for other people. So it’s very much rooted into my bloodline, into my family. ⁓

and I’m really into music. I used to make music when I was a bit younger in high school, stopped doing that. But I’m still really into the idea of doing it. If that makes sense, it’s just actually sitting down and doing it.

James (03:11)
just finding the time to kind of focus on.

Isiah (03:13)
Yeah, and I think I get into my head a lot about stuff in terms of music and about what I can put out, what I can’t put out, what I think is good. you compare yourself to other people and it’s like, I’m not ready for that. Do you know what I mean? That sort of whole pressure that comes with that.

James (03:35)
Yeah, the kind of setting expectations in your head of what good looks like can sometimes kind of hold you back from actually making something. 100%. Or just trying something completely. What’s something you’ve been curious about lately?

Isiah (03:53)
I’ve sort of forgotten that I can create personal work for photography. I’m a photographer, so…

I’m very into socially engaged photography and when I say socially engaged I mean working with people, normally young people, but I mean I’m open to work with older people, just haven’t got there yet. And I sort of work with people to create projects about what they wanna talk about.

think for me, for my job, I ⁓ work for Outreach Youth, which is an LGBT organisation, and ⁓ I’m a cisgendered person ⁓ and that obviously comes with a lot of privilege and I’ve been thinking about…

working with a group of trans young people to be able to make a project about how they see the world because they will obviously see the world differently. And I think that’s just been going around and around in my head recently and sort of how to do that without it being sort of invasive ⁓ and just to be a bit safe with them. ⁓ So I think that’s the idea that’s been going around in my head lately.

James (04:54)
Do you find your photography and the work you do around capturing images of people is a good way to kind of connect with people and start conversations?

Isiah (05:04)
Well, definitely. I think my whole life is built off of talking to people, being a youth worker and having that…

informal sort of chats with people ⁓ and I think that the fact that I work as a youth worker really helps with my photography because I think a lot about young people and a lot of my projects are based on young people in terms of the things that they do, the perceptions that they have, ⁓ like sort of put on them and ⁓

So I think my work sort of enforces that. ⁓ my degree I did, ⁓ my degree project was on the Ipswich Caribbean Association. ⁓ I basically, my grandparents were very involved in that and they I think were chair of trustees at one point. ⁓ so it was very much involved in my life. So I sort of take things that I have, ideas that I have and things that I

have grown up as a child, Beijing heritage. So all of that sort of gets forced into a project and then it’s a bit like, there’s so much to explore here.

James (06:21)
If you had to describe how your brain works in three words, what would they be and why?

Isiah (06:30)
I would say I’m very indecisive. ⁓ I can never sort of think of something and then just do it. It takes me a long time to actually come ⁓ up with an idea and to actually go through with the idea. ⁓ So indecisive would be one. ⁓ I probably say I’m very, I don’t have a diagnosis of autism or ADHD, but I would say I’m very,

I’m very stuck in processes. I don’t like change. ⁓

I very much have a process of things and when things change or the process change that throws me completely. And I think sometimes I struggle to get into new routines. ⁓ I’ve started a new sort of going out and working with community groups to do photography commissions and I found that quite difficult in terms of like navigating my time and my thought processes and having set times aside to do things. And I think that…

I probably struggle with that sort of indecisiveness and the processes that happen, if that makes sense.

James (07:43)
So the

contradiction I find is the kind of the indecisiveness but also the need for structure and they can sometimes feel like they’re conflicting with each other a little bit because you kind of need the structure but sometimes it can be very hard to know where to start with something or find the structure in something as well so that completely resonates with me.

Isiah (08:03)
definitely and I find that sometimes it’s very difficult as you say it’s difficult to get started ⁓ but once you get started sometimes I just hit a wall I remember my lecturer at uni used to always say to me ⁓ you always get really far and then you just sort of give up and not sort of give up but as in like just stop and like

because I think maybe, it might not be good enough, it might not live up to what I actually want the project to say and the context that want the photographs to have. And I think I get very much in my own head about that. And I remember my lecturer, that used to wind him up so much. And every time I used to go to a one-to-one, and I didn’t take any new work, he would be like, ⁓ well, this is ridiculous. You need to go out and do something. And he was very good at pushing me out of that.

and I sort of have him to thank for that and I think I use his sort of ideas and his the way he thinks about things and projects to sort of inform my own work and I think that was really beneficial for me in uni. Just sort of having someone just to say like get it sorted and get it together.

but in a sort of like forceful way. And I think that that used to help me a little bit because it was like, felt like I had to produce something to make them happy, if that makes sense. So it was a bit like, yeah, that was pretty good. And they would always sort of have my back in pushing me in towards things.

James (09:33)
Yeah, I think sometimes ⁓ that reflect, I can reflect on that completely, is that if people don’t give me a deadline to do something, I won’t do it because I don’t feel like there’s any kind of urgency to it. But then equally, sometimes I can be kind of in the middle of doing something and really hyper-focused on it. And then my brain will just suddenly go, no.

No, this isn’t, doesn’t feel rewarding all of a sudden. And it’s finding ways to kind of pick that back up and carry on. But having someone kind of on your shoulder in education, of being in a firm but supportive way can be really, really helpful.

Isiah (10:12)
Yeah, definitely. I think he was really integral in my… I don’t think I would have got through my degree if he wasn’t sort of supporting me, thanks to that.

James (10:21)
And

what would the third word be if you’ve got indecisive and structure, I suppose, your first two?

Isiah (10:28)
I would say I’m very reflective. But I think a lot about what I do after I’ve done it in terms of like just anything. It could be like going out with friends. How did I think that that went?

I can reflect on anything. Like it would be maybe if it’s my youth work practice, I’ll always go back to my manager and say, how did you think that happened? When? Or I would always, I’m very much looking for someone to say, that was okay. Or you did well at that. Or if I, if I didn’t think I did well in that, my head, then I’ll always go away and think, why didn’t I do that? Well, I’m very judgmental of my own practice. And I think that’s also in photography as well. Wherever I messed up.

a light and set up and had to go back because I shoot film so you have to get it right first time otherwise you cost yourself a load of money so it’s very it’s a really nice process and just being able to reflect and thinking about how you are as a person as well was really important to me.

and the way that people view me is really important as well, which is strange because growing up I didn’t really think like that and now my brain has changed and I’m working and thinking about that whilst I’m doing everything so it’s really interesting.

James (11:47)
Yeah I think it is something that’s very common in people with very busy brains that they can kind of get stuck in a little bit of a loop of self analysis and that can kind of make for a you know an already very busy mind quite overloaded and it is one of the things of

I guess having a creative mind as well is that you’re always trying to kind of look for solutions or look for ways to solve problems and that sort of thing. And sometimes that can reflect back on yourself. ⁓ I suppose that the double-edged sword of that is kind of keeping it in check so it doesn’t become too overwhelming or you become too self-critical.

Isiah (12:29)
well. Yeah I think for me because I’m a youth worker, youth workers is very like, is very rare, very sparse. I mean it’s more and more is happening over Ipswich and over Suffolk but I think when you’re a youth worker most of the time those are part-time posts so I have two part-time posts and I also do photography commissions alongside that and also work on with Spill so I have a lot to sort of think about and a lot to actually fit into my schedule. ⁓

James (12:57)
And

just loads of variety as well, which is great.

Isiah (13:00)
And it’s really fun because it’s like, oh, Friday night I’ll be at a youth club working with some LGBT kids at work. Or Tuesday evening, I’m over the Whitton and White House estate working with young people who may be vulnerable to be groomed into county lines and things like that. I’ve got a real variety of young people and work that I do. I was doing a commission for its library a couple of weeks ago and all the commission was was go to the out of time records.

inside the record shop so that they could use that stuff to ⁓ make promotional stuff so that they could put out for their project that they’re doing. And sometimes it’s like really hectic, sometimes I’ve got like events that I’ll photograph that are really like mad

I shot that outreach is youth AGM a couple years ago I shot the Volunteering Matters ⁓ Where they basically just bring a load of young people together and talk about youth social action and talk about Ipswich and there’s lots of games and lots of interaction so it’s very much like Sometimes it can be really relaxed. Sometimes it can be really like busy and you have to you have to balance that and I think

I do that quite well considering that I’ve got maybe four five different commitments at the same time, if that makes sense. So it’s really interesting. And I think having that, going back to the word reflective.

being in that process is probably quite helpful in terms of that because I’ll always, even thinking about photography, I’ll always be thinking, what did I do badly in that? Or what did I do really well? How can I do that better? So it’s self-improvement all the while.

James (14:46)
What’s something you’re still figuring out?

Isiah (14:51)
Definitely life in general. I graduated from uni last year and I am very much in the middle of not really sure what I want to do. I’m a senior youth worker in one job, so I manage the youth work and a staff team of youth workers around Suffolk. So I do that as one job and then I’m a youth worker at another job.

and I’m also working as a photographer and also sort of like a socially engaged sort of artist or creative and I think I’m fine I’m I think that I haven’t figured out what I really want to do whether I want to be a photographer whether I want to be a youth worker whether I want a mix of both and I think I think that’s sort of the main thing that I haven’t really figured out yet I’m still quite young I’m only 24

and I think that takes a lot of time to figure out something like that.

James (15:52)
Yeah, I’ve still not figured out what I really want to do. And kind of one of the things that I’ve come to realise is that’s okay. And sometimes it having that variety and having that those different sorts of challenges is, is, what you want to do. And just keeping that kind of variety and keeping options open as well can sometimes be really rewarding in itself, rather than kind of go, I want to do this as a profession and actually kind of going, I want to do lots of different things with lots of different people. And that’s what I find rewarding.

Isiah (16:23)
I think with my youth work, I think I’m really lucky to be a youth worker because I really, growing up I went to a youth club, I had one to one counselling sort of thing and ⁓ I can sort of understand that growing up with her and I think also having youth work and being a youth worker is you learn new skills. ⁓ We have to think of activities, maybe not think, let me say that again. ⁓

We work with young people to come up with activities and things that they want to do in their youth club. So I very much have to learn all the while new things such as crochet knitting. There was a phase a couple of months ago when all young people just wanted to do was crochet and make little characters. And I was sat there and I was thinking, my brain, I can’t figure this out. And I think I just went home and just sat there and I did it. And I managed to get one line, but I couldn’t figure out any.

any further than that. And I just think it’s amazing how like your brain can just like look at something and just sort of pick it up and go, actually that’s quite interesting. I could have a go at that. And I think youth workers, you learn those things and you build a sort of a toolbox of things that you know how to do and the things that you can do with young people to get them chatting to you, to get them talking to you, to get them to open up. So.

I think not knowing what you want to do and being a youth worker is probably really valuable because you just learn all these new skills that you potentially didn’t know before or things that you might not. I might do something one day and think, ⁓ I could do that every day of my life. Does that make sense?

James (18:05)
Yeah,

absolutely and and I think those skills you pick up along the way can kind of open up other opportunities as well maybe not necessarily crocheting but You can pick up skills and if you can if you have the mindset that you can be kind of very open to learning new stuff Those sorts of skills can pop up again further down the line and you can think well that was actually really useful because I can now do this which might not directly apply to What you originally learned but it just means it kind of opens doors to doing other

things as well.

Isiah (18:36)
Definitely,

definitely.

James (18:40)
What’s something about everyday life that’s easy for you, but hard for others, or the other way round?

Isiah (18:49)
I think I’m gonna go something that’s hard for me, but easy for others. ⁓ I would say making friends. I know that seems really like strange and it seems like a lot of people find that really easy, but I find that really difficult. I sort of have a lot of, what’s the word, identities and I sometimes struggle with that, so I’m LGBT and I’m also of mixed heritage and…

I struggle with pushing those things into friendship groups and I struggle to find people that are like me, if that makes sense. ⁓ And I think I overthink friendships very much, ⁓ a lot. And I think that’s probably something that I struggle with, that people that without my brain…

don’t. ⁓ I struggle with, ⁓ do they like me? Do they want to be friends with me? ⁓ How do I talk to someone? And that’s really interesting because I’m a youth worker. I go and I make relationships all the time. But I think that’s very different because those are sort of more professional relationships. Whereas when they become personal, it’s very different. And I think because I do it every day.

forming these relationships. I struggle to form relationships that are actually like real relationships, if that makes sense. And holding onto those friendships as well. I get really like, what’s the word, protective of those friendships. And I think that’s probably something that I struggle with.

in terms of making friends and I don’t know what that is about, whether that’s my mental health or whether that’s just anxiety or whatever that is. But that’s always something that I’m sort of reflective going back to that word. That’s always something that I’m reflecting on when I go out and when I do things with people, if that makes sense.

James (20:46)
Have you found any approaches that make the world better for you?

Isiah (20:57)
I would say growing up, I didn’t really have much in terms of nice things. My parents didn’t have a lot of money. We were just sort of living day to day, however we managed to get through.

I moved in with my partner at 17 and I sort of, I was forced into the life basically. I didn’t really get an opportunity to sort of test the waters and see how that would be. We instantly jumped in, moved out at 17 and I was sort of living with them.

and I think for me I’m a I’m a Grafter as you would say I like to go out and make money and and do things that I Will make myself happy and I think growing up when I didn’t have anything.

I am very much like, I’m going to treat myself to that, or I’m going to get that. And I think sometimes you just have to do those things. I think sometimes you just have to go out and buy things that make you happy and things that you want to do. And it’s not just about having objects, it’s about going out and having experiences, going to different countries, and just exploring the world.

All of my family live in Barbados. So I’m very interested in exploring that, exploring my family heritage. I’m really close with my gran who…

sort of helped me through life. I spent a lot of time with her growing up ⁓ and I do spend a lot of time with her now ⁓ and sort of spending time with family, having nice things that I like and I think that makes it a lot easier knowing you can go home and you’re financially okay, secure and not have to worry about things that potentially other people may worry about and I think that’s probably one thing that I would say.

James (22:51)
What’s a small thing that always makes you smile?

Isiah (22:58)
I find it really rewarding in my youth work practice when I see young people grow up.

I’ve been working as a youth worker since I was sort 18 and I’m now 24 so six years that’s a whole sort of school high school life and there’s this one young person who I sort of started working with when I was 17 it was very low level because I wasn’t sort of trained in youth work at that point I was very much just a trainee and starting up but he we met in year six and I think I was in year 11 and now he’s

He’s left school.

and he’s gone to an apprenticeship and I’ve sort of helped him sort of get from that and build up confidence. We talk about girlfriends, we talk about work, we talk about sort of helping writing personal statements and getting into uni and like all of those things I think looking back and seeing what they used to be like and seeing how they are now it makes me really smile because it’s like I love seeing the progression, I love seeing the difference

that my work makes, if that makes sense. ⁓ And I think that’s really important to me. ⁓ And in terms of photography and being a creative person as well, I would love to show that, that sort of journey. ⁓ I had a project ⁓ that I did when I was in college ⁓ on sort of my brother-in-law. And… ⁓

When I first sort met him, I started just to photograph him, like just really like indirectly, like really not like nothing was of it. And I think I followed him for a few years, sort of watching his development. I think he went from school into college and then ⁓ we just sort of photographed and then I revisited that project back at uni and did some more pictures. And I think that is really interesting because it made me think about the sort of the progression and the difference that I make

at being in people’s lives if that makes sense and obviously I don’t take all the credit for that. There are obviously other people such as teachers and things that sort of have an effect on a young person but I think me seeing the things that I can do and the things that I can the difference that I can make to people’s lives is really rewarding.

James (25:24)
If you had a free day with no plans, how would you spend it?

Isiah (25:27)
I think when I have a free day, tend to get…

behind my laptop and I tend to just sit there until I can figure out something that I need to do. I’m very much like, I hate having time free. ⁓ I hate, I love sitting in bed, don’t get me wrong, but I think I always, my brain is always switched on and I’m always thinking about what I could do to sort of improve something or thinking about what I can do to get ahead of something. ⁓

And it’s either I’m very productive and I’ll get something done or I get everything done at last minute and there’s literally no in between. And I think it drives some people crazy. ⁓ And I think that’s probably what I do. I just sit there on my laptop and I go, ⁓

what do I need to do today or do I have anything that I need to do and if I don’t then maybe I’ll just sit and watch TV or watch Netflix or something like that. But I don’t tend to have much free time just in terms of the way that I work because I just like to fit things in as and when I have time to do things. And I think sometimes I can trip myself up doing things like that but.

I do really enjoy having a free day and just being able to fill it with things that I enjoy.

James (26:52)
What’s something that always makes you lose track of time?

Isiah (27:05)
I would probably say music because I can sit down, put my AirPods in and I can play a song or if there’s a new album, I will always listen to the album. I’m very much one of those people who will sit and wait for the artist to drop their song and then listen to it and just sort of very hyper fixated on it until it’s sort of… ⁓

until I finished it basically. And I think music was probably the one thing that I can confidently sit there and say, ⁓ I will listen to music for hours and I will be entertained without even really doing anything, scrolling on TikTok, scrolling on Instagram, having a look at photography books. Music is definitely sort of my escape.

James (27:56)
Okay, and do you… ⁓ I guess that goes back to the kind of first question of the what’s stuck in your head recently in terms of music and that sort of thing is do you have a set playlist that helps you kind of get into that zone of when you’re trying to kind of maybe create content or ⁓ kind of…

digest content from other people? Is there a set playlist that you have that kind of helps you do that or is it just kind of like just let the algorithm take over and see what it brings you?

Isiah (28:29)
That’s a really

interesting question because I am very… sort of…

What’s the word? I’m very interested in music and all of my playlists are sorted into genres and I think by doing that I can sort of pick what I want to listen to based off the mood that I’m in and I think it depends so like if I’m driving I’ll tend to listen to more upbeat stuff because I sort of that helps me concentrate so maybe I would listen to some like Bachman or some reggae or something like that to drive to but then if I’m just relaxing at home

I might listen to R &B, I might listen to something bit slower or I have a very very varied music taste and I think that I don’t really have a set playlist that I always sort of go to. I think it’s just depending on my mood as to what playlist I would choose if that makes sense or what genre of music that I would listen to.

James (29:31)
Yeah, I’m very similar of kind of depending on what I need my brain to do and what speed I need it to do it. Definitely. To find the music I’ll listen to. So if I need to kind of really slow down and think about something and I’ll probably listen to like ambient or very kind of sparse beat stuff. If I know exactly what I need to do and I just want to get it done, then it will be kind of super up tempo. ⁓

I just kinda just smash the workout sort of thing and it would just drive me along. One thing I do have which I know helps me is…

I have a playlist as a shortcut on my phone and if I’m ever feeling really overwhelmed then I can just hit the shortcut and it switches my phone into airplane mode and just kind of just plays this music and that’s kind of massively helpful for me as a kind of escape route sometimes of just having that kind of one comfort song in this playlist which is just that kind of reset thing which just hits the kind of like emergency break button.

Isiah (30:31)
Yeah, I feel like now you say that I feel like I do that indirectly I feel like I’m very much like if I get annoyed about something or if I just want to relax or I’m very much I am very much like I will switch my phone off and I will get my laptop out and I’ll put my playlist on ⁓ So I can I think I can really resonate with that because it’s like when things get too much music is the thing that I will go to and I will always spend hours and hours trying to find one song that sort of fits

It’s the mood that I’m in and I do that a lot like depending on how I’m feeling obviously I will spend a lot of time trying to find song with specific lyrics. I’m very much I listen to lyrics and songs and I think it’s really important because it’s like people spend time writing those lyrics. Why wouldn’t you listen to them and digest them and just think about what they actually really mean? And I think that’s that sort of helps me sort of relax and get into the mode or as going back.

You’re right as if I want to do something like sort of upbeat or I need to concentrate then I will listen to fast music but Opposite if I’m relaxing then I will listen to slow music. So it’s really interesting

James (31:42)
There’s a really good quote I heard the other day by a musician and he was saying that album is good to listen to whole albums by bands because though the lyrics and the music at that time are like a diary of the life of the band at that time and the meaning of the lyrics can resonate really strongly if you can kind of interrogate them and understand them a little bit more and what they mean and they can

⁓ reflect your mood and how you’re feeling and kind of give you a little bit of a sense of peace because of kind of your interpretation of what the lyrics mean.

Isiah (32:21)
Yeah, and I think…

Like I think I have a sort of perfect example for that because it’s like there’s an artist called Summer Walker. And I think I saw this on TikTok the other day. I think she’s bringing out a new album soon and her albums go over it and then they go still over it. And then it’s finally over it, the new album. And I think that’s really interesting because it’s like she’s talking about her journey in life. She’s talking about her, her like sort of life, her love life, her feelings. And I think

That’s over.

that sort of telling that story is really interesting. I’m really invested in that, if that makes sense. And I think it’s true. It’s like, I really enjoy artists that actually take the time to actually sit down and write the music. And I really don’t like listening to music where it’s just like, I don’t know, gangster this, gangster that, stab people this, I hate that. But it’s very much like, I want to listen to music that sort of has a meaning and there’s a reason to make

the song if that makes sense, whereas just screaming down the mic or just shouting about how angry you are or something like that. I know that might resonate with some people but for me that’s just not what I enjoy.

James (33:35)
What’s the best advice you’ve ever been given?

Isiah (33:37)
I was thinking about this as I was driving here, because I think this is the one question that I was struggling with. Because I’ve been given, well, everyone in life has been given a lot of advice, but it’s about that one thing that sort of sticks with you. And I think for me, it was once that my partner said to me, if you’re not going to be angry about it tomorrow, then it’s not worth thinking about. And I’ve been thinking about that a lot recently. have a really short fuse, and I get really overwhelmed really quickly.

and I think sometimes taking a step back and actually thinking is this really that deep or is it really worth getting annoyed about or worth having feelings about ⁓ and I think I do that a lot now and I think that’s really helped with my process and the way that I process life a little bit ⁓ I would say that’s probably what it is.

James (34:27)
That’s come across a lot of the talks by the guests that I’ve done about kind of having that space to pause and kind of think about.

how you’re feeling or the situation you’re in and how you want to reflect on it. And sometimes it can be very easy to kind of take an immediate reaction to something. But what you need to try and do is kind of create that space to kind of pause and then go, you know, is it something I want to react to or is it something, as your partner said, if you’re not going to be angry about it tomorrow, then it’s not worth thinking about and

Isiah (35:00)
It’s not laughing.

James (35:04)
having it comes with practice but just being able to create that space and having that time rather than reacting immediately can be really useful.

Isiah (35:12)
definitely and I think it helps a lot when you’re thinking about just just general things like anything work, friendships, anything, relationships, anything and I think it’s really important you can think about it in lots of different ways

James (35:33)
What’s something you’re excited to learn or try in the future?

Isiah (35:36)
I have things where I do things ⁓ and I have times where I’m just sort of obsessed with things. And I think at the moment ⁓ I’m really into photo books. ⁓

I have been watching so many videos of different techniques, how to create photo books. And I did a module at uni where we had to create a photo book. And actually the Jamie project that I talked about was what I did for that and creating that book. And I’m really into watching different types of stitching, different types of book binding at the moment. And I’m really excited to sort of…

try and make my work into something that I would like to share with people. I’m really, I’m sort of in the process of creating a book of something, a piece of work that I’ve been working on for a while. So I’m really invested in sort of that at the moment.

James (36:33)
Yeah I think there’s something… the convenience of the immediacy of photography these days has taken away… like I can take a picture and I can put it on a social media platform and I don’t really have to think about it too much and the filters will kind of take away some of the ⁓ bad bits of the photography. The immediacy of that and the convenience of that has taken away…

the real power that a photograph in print in a really nice bound book ⁓ can have and the interaction that people have with it is completely different than how they digest it on a screen. And I think that there’s still there’s still space for photo books and there’s an opportunity to still create. mean, you still shoot with film as well. So there is the process is still there with you of the kind of the long process of photography and the the the end result of a photo book is a really powerful

thing for people to be able to interact with because it’s real and it’s tactile and they are turning the pages and they are exploring rather than kind of it being fired into their face from a screen.

Isiah (37:38)
Yeah,

it’s really interesting because when I was at uni, I was really stuck in that process. Sort of not stuck because I was enjoying it. It was sort of I would go out, I would work with young people. I did this project called Why Room What’s Ours, which is linked with the Spill Festival work that I did. And it was basically we worked as a collaboration with

five young people ⁓ and we just went out and I gave them 35mm cameras and we’d go out, walk, take all these pictures but obviously young people are so used to everything as you say on their phones, everything coming up straight away they really struggled to visualise what that image was going to look like when it came out so it was really interesting seeing them develop and also seeing that process develop.

and sort of going back to photo books, when you’ve sort of gone through that process of sort of you have to take the picture, you have to take it to the darkroom, you have to develop it, you have to fix it, you have to stop, all of that sort of stuff when you’re developing, ⁓ and then you have to scan the image, or you have to go in the darkroom and print it, and I think it’s really, that process gives you a lot of time to think about the work and what the actual context of the work is, and I think that’s what photo books are really good at, giving you that extra context.

and I think when you’re on social media and when you’re talking about work it’s really difficult to actually get what you want to say across and I think photo books are really important in that aspect because you can spend a lot of time thinking about what words you want to put on the page to link with that work and I think the context of the book, the size of the book is really important so I think about some work like Dana Lichtenberg

Imperial courts is a large format project. So they’ve shot five by four eight by ten I don’t know which one but large format. So the book is really big. It’s probably I think it’s probably a three size maybe a bit bigger ⁓ and I think the idea of using the photo book to talk about photography and to talk about that sort of links with that because it’s like why wouldn’t you print those portraits massive they’re black and white and they’re really

they’re photographs of people of colour and I think you don’t really see that very often. mean you do now after the sort of black live stuff and all of that that’s gone on but before that you don’t see big detailed pictures of black people because they…

it’s not normal, like it’s not normalized in society. So it’s really interesting like when the way that you present a photo book really changes the narrative of the work and really enforces the narrative as well. So for example, when I worked with Jamie to create his photo book, I used fingerprints. I got an ink pad.

and I sort got him to put his fingers on the ink pad and then paint and then put them on a bit of paper and then scanned them in and then sort of incorporated that into the work and into the book and the front page is just is a fingerprint of him and his fingerprint on the front of the book and I got him to hand write everything all of the all of the words in the book all of the descriptions all of these sort of captions and everything and that sort of personal touch really really sort of enforced the narrative that actually we

we had that good connection and we have the work, we spent a lot of time making that work. Does that make sense? And I think photography is really good at that and getting messages across and I think that’s why I sort of, I’m a socially engaged photographer because I’m really interested in community, I’m interested in identities and race and all of those things. So I think photo books are really important to sort of get that message across.

James (41:27)
Yeah, and I think

the time you spend in the process and the output of a book and shooting a film makes people slow down because they are kind of being forced to interact with something. And in a very traditional sense that they are…

just dealing with the book there and then and what’s written on the page and the time that you’ve put into going through the photographic process and the editorial process and the additional content creation process and the production process of making the book just instills a slower pace into people rather than kind of you can get everything on your screen now in a thousand different ways but this is but this is the one thing that i’m wanting to look you to look at now and interact with and i think that finding those moments

is hard to do these days, but being able to produce stuff like that creates those moments for people to be able to interact at a slower pace.

Isiah (42:27)
Yeah, and it’s really, as you say, like when you sort of interact with a photograph, if you look at it on a screen, it’s like iPhones and Apple phones, Android, they’re not very big, they’re getting bigger, but.

For the, to look at a picture, you need to see it properly. Does that make sense? If it’s bigger, you’re going to notice more things. Like, I don’t know, there’s something in the background that adds more context to the picture. Whereas if you’re just scrolling on TikTok or you’re scrolling on Instagram, you’re not necessarily going to zoom in and look at that. And I think that’s really, really important that people see your work properly, if that makes sense. And I think that’s why I sort of, I don’t share a lot of things on social media, a lot of my work on social media or serious work that I sort of want to

out and want people to see, I’m very reluctant to share my work. And I think it’s really, that process is really interesting and important, definitely for a photographer.

James (43:24)
Yeah and I think just the power of large format photography and the detail that it still produces is still very hard for digital photography to replicate.

Isiah (43:36)
Definitely. And I struggle with digital photography, just in terms of I really enjoy the process of film photography. I have a digital camera. I shoot digital work, but I mainly use digital for commission work because it’s more, it’s there, it’s on the screen, it’s ready to go, whereas I don’t have to wait a couple of days, send it off, let the film come back, or develop the film myself. It’s very much like, it’s there, it’s ready.

digital photography, just don’t feel, it doesn’t give you the same feeling as getting the negatives back and having a look at the negatives under the light and actually seeing what you produced and also having that space in between when, in between shooting and development, having that space to think about what the work meant and why you did that and that, you don’t get that with digital photography. You just get really, really, really ridiculously sharp images and

It’s just easy and I think also anyone can do that, anyone can pick up a camera, everyone has an iPhone, everyone has a phone that they can take pictures on and I think that’s really important that sometimes actually you have to slow down and you have to think about the processes and I think that’s the difference between being a professional photographer and just sort of being an everyday person taking a picture on their phone.

James (44:57)
Yeah and sometimes with film it’s the imperfections that make it.

Isiah (45:02)
Definitely.

I fall into this trap a lot. So when you scan film, sometimes you’ll get it’ll be in got dust on it and you have to sort of sit and actually edit out all of that dust. And sometimes I really sit there and I’m like, yeah, I’m gonna edit it really light, really make it look perfect. But I think in my most recent project, the project with the young people, I sort of didn’t do that as much. And I think it was really interesting because it actually gave the work a little bit more depth to her.

It actually meant that actually the work was real and it was actually what was shot rather than maybe a little bit of an edit. And I sort of left a little bits of hair or little lines that messed up. And I think it’s part of the work and I think it’s there. So why would you get rid of it?

James (45:52)
Yeah, it’s part of the honesty

of the work and I guess it’s similar to listening to stuff on vinyl sometimes as well, is that the crackles and the scratches and that sort of thing just add to it rather than detract from it.

Isiah (46:04)
And I think when stuff is too perfect, it’s really hard to…

to make up your own mind about things. I think when things are too perfect to stare in front of you, you know exactly what it is. Whereas with my work, it’s about perceptions and it’s about identity and it’s about socially engaged and being involved in communities. And I think that each person has their own view of that. And I think when you edit something too much or when you spend a lot of time thinking about what something looks like, you get trapped into that because it’s like…

society tells you to be one way, but actually if you let people decide how they want to be or how they want to view that image, it changes the narrative of it, if that makes sense. And I think that’s really important to me. And even things when I’m thinking about print and spill exhibition, I wanted them huge because I wanted someone to stand there a metre away and actually see the whole picture and actually see everything in the picture. And actually to have that experience of standing in an exhibition, I think is also really important. I know we talked about photo books,

but having an exhibition and having it printed is really important because you stand there, whether you go on your own or if you’re with someone, you stand there and you talk about the picture and you make up your own mind about the picture. And I think I really enjoy that and I love going to exhibitions and sort of making my own mind up about what the work means and how that influences my brain and my thinking. So photography can be really interesting.

James (47:30)
Yeah I think that with any kind of gallery experience I always like to ⁓ look at the work first and kind of interpret it myself and then go and read the caption and then kind of go okay that’s and and sometimes the

Isiah (47:41)
Yeah.

James (47:48)
disparity between what your interpretation is and what the ⁓ artist’s meaning of it is can be really interesting because you can make one assumption on face value of what you’re looking at and then read the caption and go, okay, that’s added an extra layer of complexity to it, which again, you don’t have the brain space to be able to do when you’re looking at it on a small screen.

Isiah (48:11)
And

I think there’s something that I really enjoy when you go to galleries. ⁓ Specifically, I haven’t seen it in many other places, but the Photographers’ Gallery in London, whenever there’s an exhibition, there’s always a little metal board just round the corner. I think it’s on the second floor or something.

they leave like bits of white paper and pencils so that people can write about the exhibition. And I always, every single time of outfell, I spend so long standing there reading it because I’m really intrigued to think about how other people see things and how other people think about things. And I think going back to my three words, it’s like, I’m very reflective and I’ve just spent an hour looking at the work.

but now I want to know what other people think of it and now I want to know and actually that might add to my opinion of the work or it might change the way I see the work and I think that that space in the Photographers Gallery is really really important.

James (49:13)
What’s one thing you’d like listeners to take away from this conversation?

Isiah (49:19)
I think to think about…

Everyone thinks differently about things and I think that sometimes people get stuck in their ways of doing things a certain way and I think it’s really important to actually do things that put you out of your comfort zone and sort of to think about life in a different way, to sit back and reflect on life differently

James (49:42)
And what’s next for you?

Isiah (49:43)
wow, that’s a really big question. I am really keen to just sort of plod along and just see where it takes me. ⁓ I want to start a new personal project, ⁓ which I want to do very, like, as soon as this sort of spill stuff is all over. ⁓ I want to start my own personal project. ⁓

But I think for me, I’m very indecisive. I take a long time to think about things. I’ve got maybe three projects along, like happening in my head that I’m shooting for that I can’t seem to think about which one I want to focus on or which one I want to enjoy the most. I went to Czechia last year and I photographed ⁓ a lot of the scenery, a lot of the landscape. And ⁓ it was really interesting because I was walking in Czechia and ⁓

someone just walked past me and just started making monkey noises at me. And I was really like, obviously I was annoyed, but…

I actually thought about what that meant and actually it led me to start thinking about like, actually maybe this country doesn’t see many black people because walking around I haven’t seen many and I was sort of in a little town called Jnimo. I have a friend who’s a photographer who used to live there and I used to go see him and I think shooting there and shooting my idea of what it looks like being a black person in that space is really interesting and I think about my own self in space.

a lot and I think that that is something that is going to come up in my work a lot and I think that’s something that for next for going in the future I think that’s definitely something that I’m going to be constantly thinking about. I really want to make new projects, I want to do more commission work and I just want to become a better youth worker so I would say that’s probably what’s next for me.

James (51:35)
Awesome, thanks Isiah. Enjoy the Spill festival and thanks for the chat.

Isiah (51:39)
Thank you.